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Panathar (SuperAdmin) 10/19/2012 6:16 AM EST : RE: Tapping
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So to clarify....and maybe I should have not titled this thread "Tapping."  The complaint is the removal of grouping shared kills BECAUSE of open tapping.  Jake while there are other grouping benefits, I'm speaking to the loss of the specific shared-kill grouping benefit.  That's gone. Eg, Bobby and Johnny are grouped.  They start questing for 10 thingamabobs.  Johnny kills one, whilst Bobby tanks another.  Johnny finishes up the first mob, and goes to town with Bobby on the second mob.  Bobby only gets credit for one kill, while Johnny gets two.  In other words, fellowships no longer count for anything. 

I'm all about open tapping.  This is not a complaint about that.  How do you see the Moors improving because of this? 

If there is any content that does require grouping and quest kills or anything like that, the new mechanic makes group coordination less about success and more about getting your hit in for credit.  Again, no complaints about open tapping.  I think it is an oversight to remove benefits for grouping regarding kills, and will hurt slayer deeds at minimum, maybe Moors grouping (for single target non-ranged classes) and any small group questing where kills are required.
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JTollers (SuperAdmin) 10/19/2012 10:28 PM EST : RE: Tapping
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So I see your point, but I think there are different ways to look at this:
  1. Old system you had to roll/pass on loot while in group
  2. Old system if you contributed to a kill that you did not tap first, you got NO loot
  3. Old system if you were in group and contributed or did not contribute to a kill - everyone in the group got adjusted XP, gold, etc. Even if you didn't touch a mob, and you were within a certain range, you impacted their renown, loot, xp, et
  4. Old system - you could put someone on follow while the deed grinded and get full credit while you took a nap
  5. New System - you have to tap a mob even if you are grouped and there are two ways to do that - heal a player or hit a mob
  6. New System - you get 100% of all loot, gold, XP, MXP, IXP
  7. New System - you can get out of Old sytem range and still get credit if you hit or healed target - "'Adan, hurry up', shrieked Loc."
  8. New System - only works in certain zones - i.e. Rohan, and some public instances - not private ones like clusters/raids etc.
The set backs:
- you have to be coordinated
- AoE classes have an advantage (whether healing or dps)
- your example

The benefits
- you get 100% loot
- you level and deed faster bc you are both working together and getting full credit
- you don't have to be in range
- you have to be coordinated, which means you get credit for actually helping in the killing of a mob

It's similar to old moors without DR. However, there are very good reason still to group because of group wide support skills. In addition, the burg got a more Range skills - one that goes even over 50 meters. I do think you have to be intentional, but it also means someone not being silly and just pull a mess of stuff and compromising the group.

I am going to keep watching and feeling it out, but for now, I like it better than before where people were fighting over mobs, getting reduced loot, and qq all over the place. Burgs especially were at a disadvantage before because the set up shot and approach takes time a hunter 40m away could just shoot the mob and we were screwed on the quest/xp/loot etc. That doesn't happen anymore.

Also, remember, it's just for public instances and landscape in Rohan and the mobs that do this are clearly marked. I actually do not recall a whole lot of intentional grouping on landscape in previous expansion outside of deeds. People generally quest alone or around each other. So where the biggest hit would be in the set-backs, I just don't think happened a lot.

I'll keep an open perspective, but I enjoy the mechanic and still see reason to group for faster coordinated killing, mounted play, and the new group skills that are very set up for Warbands.

irishbrutha said:
So to clarify....and maybe I should have not titled this thread "Tapping."  The complaint is the removal of grouping shared kills BECAUSE of open tapping.  Jake while there are other grouping benefits, I'm speaking to the loss of the specific shared-kill grouping benefit.  That's gone. Eg, Bobby and Johnny are grouped.  They start questing for 10 thingamabobs.  Johnny kills one, whilst Bobby tanks another.  Johnny finishes up the first mob, and goes to town with Bobby on the second mob.  Bobby only gets credit for one kill, while Johnny gets two.  In other words, fellowships no longer count for anything. 

I'm all about open tapping.  This is not a complaint about that.  How do you see the Moors improving because of this? 

If there is any content that does require grouping and quest kills or anything like that, the new mechanic makes group coordination less about success and more about getting your hit in for credit.  Again, no complaints about open tapping.  I think it is an oversight to remove benefits for grouping regarding kills, and will hurt slayer deeds at minimum, maybe Moors grouping (for single target non-ranged classes) and any small group questing where kills are required.


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Panathar (SuperAdmin) 10/20/2012 9:02 PM EST : RE: Tapping
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Again, I don't think you're understanding my argument.  I don't see a necessary connection between new tapping system and changing fellowship mechanics.  I take it that both systems are co-possible.  Therefore, take this as a complaint strictly about changing fellowships.  It does no good to tell me that the new tapping system is great, therefore the cost to grouping is fine, because I'm not arguing that tapping needs to change, but that fellowship kill dynamics need to be restored.  Unless an argument is made that those two things are not co-possible, then any argument on behalf of tapping doesn't affect the dialogue.  I'd accept a coding argument, for instance.

Further, you wrote that the following are benefits:
"- you level and deed faster bc you are both working together and getting full credit
- you don't have to be in range
- you have to be coordinated, which means you get credit for actually helping in the killing of a mob"

1) You don't level and deed faster as I've argued. See # 3 for further argument. 
2) You do have to be in range in order to hit the thing, so not sure what you meant here.
3) You have to be coordinated in a specific way, and that way might not be, to borrow from our Dear Leader, "optimal" for actual accomplishment of the goals the group is up for.  You may be working together (though I take it that groups have always worked together, this just forces a certain type of working together that is not natural to the mode of playing that has or should guide group decision making.)  For instance, classes with non-dps and non-healing roles will be dpsing or healing instead of doing those roles.  More important, even classes that have dps roles, eg., high single target melee dmg, but not very much aoe, are going to be attempting to get their "quick hit" off on as many mobs as possible rather than starting in on their highest dps rotation.  Therefore, you may not be deeding or lvling faster.  In fact, there is complaint on the forums about certain groups trying to level together that are hurt by xp disparity because of this issue; and it seems self-evident that this would be highly problematic for slayer deeds.
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JTollers (SuperAdmin) 10/23/2012 3:16 PM EST : RE: Tapping
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Most folks understand what you mean, and for the most part it has gone unnoticed either because people have not grouped a lot while questing or when they do, it just goes unnoticed due the large increase in overall loot folks are now getting. Even with a 6th bag, and the new uber fantastic loot queue that saves pending loot for an hour is maxing out. The amount of XP (since it is no longer cut by proportion of fellows or hits) is leveling us very fast. Mori and I were experimenting with this, and I have also been grouping on my burg a swell. I have heard Captains are doing well since they have one of the easiest ways to group heal.

In addition, the idea is for landscape, and there hasn't been talk about open tapping in instances, but even if it was, it would make little difference. RoI already eliminated loot from mobs in instances. That was a great move to prevent slow down. It is now all in the chests and everyone gets the same, which seems great. In addition, purples are no longer BoA, they are BoE.

ALL that to say, the Devs announced today that the fellowship penalty was NOT intentional. I am not sure what that exactly means. Does it mean upon a fix that we will all get 100% loot in a fellowship even if we do not participate in a kill or does it mean they will go pack to pre RoR mechanic where you get portioned loot. The later seems lame based on how much we are getting now even with the current gap, if the former it may mean difficult coding like if you tap, you get 100% if you don't you get a portion. Maybe, just maybe they will allow once in a fellowship that debuffs and marks will provide you a Tap. That would be superfantastic.

We'll have to wait and see. However, I know you are tied up D, but it is super fun and there is more loot going around that one can  manage. No wonder why the Uruks and Orc Riders have descended upon Rohan!

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Bdion (Associate) 10/24/2012 9:54 PM EST : RE: Tapping

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Well, I'm hoping that folks in a fellowship will get full credit for the mobs killed in the fellowship without having to tap.  I was running though some quests with Anurwhoa and I could not tap fast enough. I was on a cell-phone tethered to my laptop and lagging a bit, so by the time I got in range, targetted and got a "quick shot" off I would get the "target is already dead" message. Very frustrating for both of us, since he would be complete with the quests, but he'd have to hang around for me to complete. I'm heading home now, so by this weekend i should be back online and hopefully no more lag!
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Panathar (SuperAdmin) 10/26/2012 1:28 PM EST : RE: Tapping
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Edited to add: And Jake, again, looting changes well may be great. This has no bearing on my argument about the distortion of group cooperation that will occur if this goes into instances.  It will make a large difference if there are quests that require killing certain mobs in instances, and will pull classes away from their role as participants toward group success, and force them to think about tapping. That's more important to me than the coolness of loot now.  And honestly, the loot issue is, as I stated in my previous post, sort of irrelevant to the argument I'm making.  I'm not arguing that we should lose new benefits.  I'm asking for the repair of the lost benefit; because of a change to fundamental mechanics of cooperative group skill. 

I'll end with a comment that it's not going unnoticed.  There's a petition in the forums to change it because there's quite a bit of consternation about it.  This is how I even found out about it.  That's good that devs have said this wasn't intentional, and I'm hoping they mean the group sharing kills.
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Harlinator (Member) 10/28/2012 10:11 PM EST : RE: Tapping
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Hopefully, they will fix it thusly: while in a group, all members get full credit as if all players tapped.

It's silly that you don't get deed credit now for stuff if in a group and a mob dies before you can hit it.  I believe this is what they are fixing.

As for the 'group' dynamics that Pan is talking about, I think that if they fix it the way I describe, everything should go back to normal for groups (and quite frankly, who cares if we get better/worse loot, etc.....this is just landscape stuff).

As a mini with lots of ranged skills, the open tapping is a little slice of Heaven!

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