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Deadslug (SuperAdmin) 6/9/2010 2:31 PM EST : Guild Merger?????
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Deadslug
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I AM ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Ok, this topic is coming out kind of fast???  I'm also not sure on how I feel about it.  There are pro's and con's to all of it.

EXPLANATION

We've been Allied with folk from ACME Fighting Company and Knights of the Silver Dragon for the better part of a year now.  We try and raid together, and we have a userchannel set up so we can try and co-ordinate more questing and playing together with friendly people that we can know, and trust are quality gamers.  PUGs can sometimes be intimidating and unwelcoming.  All 3 of our guilds do not regularly have enough active players on to be able to pull of a 12 man raid by ourselves.  Sometimes even when we have enough people on, there is then the problem of having characters flagged for the specific date, or characters of the right level. 
It has been difficult in the Umbers to recruit new players that will stick around.   As i recruit new people into the game, I try and group with them, but then when they get to a certain level, they start looking for play styles that we can't support.  I recruit somebody new, I start playing with them, then the person I am now neglecting has nobody to play with, and they then leave the guild looking for somebody to play with. 

A guild, when you tear away all the other trimmings, is a group of friendly people to play with.  Umber Hulks is very good at being really friendly with each other.  When we're on, we all have a good time playing with each other.  Generally we'll play with each other first. 

The ACMEsilverhulk channel is good, but it is difficult to see who is on it?  Just because there is somebody logged on to it, doesn't mean you "know" them, or "know" their playing style.  Not as easy for some reason as if they were in Guild chat. 

With the looming "Guild Airship" coming, there are questions of how easy it will be to get an airship as big, useful or nice as we'd like it with really only 8-12 active players in our guild. 

The other 2 guilds started wondering the same thing.  They have been experiencing the who to play with problem.  They have been wondering about the Airship thing.  Members from ACME Fighting Company started reaching out and asking about Guild Mergers.  I have spoken to Vars/Marsalle/Brockson/Lanford and Moncton (Knights Guild Leader) about it.  There are mixed feelings.  I have talked to Kizkut and Nalinor about it.  I have talked to Bekki of ACME about it.  I have not seen Kahri (ACME guild leader) since the topic came up. 

Umber Hulks has prided itself over our 4 1/2 years of being DRAMA FREE.  On the last website, Sigfried explained quite clearly his outlook on Guild Mergers.  For those of you who didn't get a chance to read that,  He did not like them.  They tend to create drama and always tend to go badly (summed up / paraphrased).  I as of yet have not spoken to Sig about this new / current topic.  Kiz has spoken to him about it.

Guild Merger Problems:

Problem #1:  All three guilds have individual histories and have been around for a very long time.  Long standing members of these guilds are not quickly going to want those histories abandoned.  Guild Pride.  I do not want to see ACME, Knights or Umber Hulks disappear from the server. 

Problem #2:  All three guilds have specific different flavors.  I love chocolate.  I love Tomato Sauce.  I love Orange Juice.  I would not want to Drink a Tomato Sauce/Orange Juice/Chocolate drink. 

Problem #3:  Our Leadership is different, our playing styles different, our structures are different.  We have 3 separate Guild Leaders.  Kahri, Moncton and Nineteen.  One guild has One Guild Leader.  Each Guild has its recognized Officers.  One Guild, a portion of each guild's recognized officers will be demoted.  This is where the drama starts.  Its all about EGO.  And I'll personalize it.  Please don't think that i'm some sort of horrible ego maniac, (I am, but please don't think so).  Lets say Moncton is the chosen New Guild Leader.  I am no longer a guild leader.  My title, my status and my pull on the server goes down.  Sounds silly?  Why would I care?  I'm not sure?  But I do?  I would no longer have as much "say" in what's going on.  That never bothered me when I wasn't the guild leader under Sig?  Why would it matter now?  I think its recognition outside the guild?  Not sure.  Moncton, and Moncton ALONE would have the final say of who would be Officers in the guild and the final arbitrator of misunderstandings.  Now I am not saying that Moncton would or would not act like this.... I'm just saying it is a concern. 
Lets say, Moncton is the GL, and Nineteen, Kahri, Bekki, Sigfried, Brockson are the Officers.  Everyone is a member.  Lets say, suddenly somebody who used to be a Silver Dragon Officer with a very friendly history with Moncton, suddenly has a "problem" with Kizkut (someone who used to be an officer of Umber Hulks).  Does his former KotSD status have more sway with Moncton, thus more sympathy, than Kizkut.  Right or Wrong?  If I was the Guild Leader, Would I be more likely to listen to Kizkut than say Leeya?  Because I have known and enjoyed playing with Kizkut for the better part of 5 years, and am barely getting to know Leeya??  Fights, it could become clicky.  Would Brockson a former Knight Officer have more say than Bekki, a former ACME officer?  Would Kahri, a former guild leader have more say than Brockson, just a former officer?  Where would people like say "Anne" fall?  Anne's status in our guild or any new guild involving us should never be compromised?  Anne has a huge voice in anything that Umbers ever do.  If we say Anne can never be compromised, who are the vital/important figure heads in the other 2 guilds that they would feel some kind of way about?  More than 6 Officers, probably?  Knights has more offices in the new guild than ACME or Umbers do?  Now there is some kind of complaint about how many officers each guild has?  (Drama) Does the Guild Leader count as one of the officers? Now we are all adults?  We all """Should""" be able to be professional and keep our ego's in check.

Problem #4:  Role-Playing:  Umber Hulks is part of 2 alliances, not just one.  We are a member of the Thelanis Role-playing Alliance.  I like these people a lot.  I play with these people a lot.  Knights and ACME both are not really Role-playing guilds, and none of them could really give 2 blips about RP'ing.  A lot of Umbers don't care about it either.  There is a side of Umbers that does care about it and does do it.  Do we lose them?  Do we lose / break that alliance. 

Problem # 5:  Name?  I like the members of ACME Fighting Co.  They are some real quality players.  I simply can't imagine That being "MY" guild's name.  I simply wouldn't be comfortable with it?  Its not bad or anything, its just not something I could get excited about.  Knights of the Silver Dragons.  I like it... Its just long.  As strongly as I feel like I wouldn't want to see our guild name disappear and us just all become one of them?  They would of course feel the same way.  The Knight's members would want to keep their name, ACME players would want to keep their name, and Umbers would want to keep their name.  The only fair way to do it would be to keep a place holder character in each original 3 guilds, so that the names don't go away or get hi-jacked by another person meaning to destroy the guild name's reputations.  Then the rest of us would join a 4th new guild.  The 4th new guild would need a new name.  Preferably one we could all agree upon, and one that wouldn't be too close to either of the old 3 names.  ACMEsilverhulk is fine for a userchannel, but would look really stupid as a Guild Name. 
A couple of us threw names around last night,  we came up with Minions of Set, Steel Pyramid, and others that I forget right now.  I think we all ended up really liking Steel Pyramid.  But who knows???  The guild name thing would be the first real obstacle of setting up a 4th guild.  No matter what you name it, somebody is not going to like it.    I like being an Umber Hulk.  The name works on a couple of different levels for me.  Its deeper than just the first impression of an insect like burrowing humanoid that confuses its prey with its multiple eyes.  Thats why we liked Steel Pyramid, because it works on a couple of levels.  Anyway, the name thing is going to be an issue.

Problem # 6:  Will it FIX ANYTHING????

Problem #7:  How many people will each guild lose, because of a merger?  There are some folk in each guild who would only be sticking around because of the history/legacy of the guild names.  I'll give you an example.  Are Sigfried and Anne only sticking around because its the guild they built?  Would we lose them?  Should the whole decision be made or broken based on losing one or 2 people.  No... but those 1 or 2 people???

There are many more problems than these.  I am mixed on this.  I see problems.  For every one of my problems, there are simple fixes.  With the Airship looming. 
We need to fix the membership of Umbers.  Whether we do an active recruiting campaign, or merge... we have to find more people to play with.  Merge is I think the easier of the two based on individual player's goals for their individual characters.  If we do not bolster/ fix the guild's membership, we will continue to lose quality players from the guild to other guilds that can satisfy raiding and regular questing goals of our players.  We will then lose the Umber Hulk name due to nobody being here.  That said.  I am not going anywhere.  I have been here through very slim times in the past, and will remain.  I would like to see us stay Umber Hulks and attract new members here.  I can't do that by myself. 

Penny for your thoughts..  Heck?? I'll give you a dime?  A Platinum piece?  Goodness??  You people drive a hard bargain.

I'm Deadslug, and that's what I think.


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Nalinor (Officer) 6/9/2010 6:34 PM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????

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Okay,

I guess what concerns me the most about this at this stage is there may be no need to worry yet. We have a good month until Updat 5 comes out, and that is if it is on time. Once it is out and we see how things go with the guild changes and levels and airships, perhaps then we can make a move. It may become a non-issue.

Another area of concern is general play time and what goals we have as players; it would be nice to run raids easily every night if need be.

I myself can't commit to this online life except in sporadic blocks of time. When I can play, I tend to go crazy every night, and then when I can't anymore, I vanish for months. I feel my voice in this is a half of one since I am only here part of the time. But it still would be nice to have a solid guild of dedicated, nightly players to see online when I am around and ready to go, and not the often ghost town feel it can have at times.

I think (and I'm just tossing this out there with the rest) we should create an experimental new guild and dedicate a third to half our other characters to it -- or even create a few new ones for it. Let's say we three guilds start Steel Pyramid. I can move Beltakorr, Cargonar, etc. into it and leave Nalinor and maybe an experimental lowbie or two in Umber Hulks. All three guilds could do this. Nineteen, Moncton and Kahri would still maintain guild leadership in their old guilds, but all of our focus would now be on the guild renown and airships and such for the fourth newly created guild. If content required a different type of character or class for that quest, we all could easily log on a different guilded character to help out if it was needed. We do that now all the time. "Wait, I have a Rogue in Umber Hulks. Let me log him on real quick and we can go..."

And if drama ensues with the newly created guild, it could easily be dispanded and we all go back to the status quo like before.

I just think pride in the name is the part for me that is touchy. I like being an Umber Hulk. I like old timers returning and asking me about old players and maybe they tell me tales in /tells of when they played with such and such. It's awesome. I wouldn't want to see that name vanish. I wouldn't to see Acme or the Dragons suffer a similar fate either.

So I offer the idea of a new sub-guild experiment if need be. And who knows, there may be no need. It's not like I care what the power guilds think of me. So what if Legion is riding the airship version of a Hummer Limo and the Umber Hulks have the equilavent of a Prius. haha I don't mind.

But seriously, since this is a new chapter in the history of DDO, why not create something that is new and fresh as well. Steel Pyramid, Minions of Set, Blood Triad, call it what you will, I think the safe bet is with the new.

Now the con side of my idea on the pros v. cons is that still the Umber Hulks, Acme and Silver Dragons would not or may ever have much if any guild renown. We are all too small. Well, Umber Hulks membership is too sparce for sure. Our pride in this we would rest and need to be put on the new guild alone. And our three old names would mostly be just that -- a name.

So that's my bit. I'm sure I haven't covered it all. This is what came to my mind first.

Thoughts? Things I missed?

Thanks everyone.

Snip (Nalinor, Beltakorr, Cargonar, etc.)

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Kizkut (Officer) 6/9/2010 10:00 PM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????
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Ok, I have changed my mind a dozen times since 19 and i talked about it a few days ago.

I see the good and bad with both paths to take.

I agree we don't want drama.

I have been reading the lammannia discussion forum lately. As far as the renown for the guild, i think we will be able to achieve it, it will just take longer. Seems like all the perks, are temp, but renewable.

I believe the issue of the Airship could be removed as a reason for the Merge.

But our membership numbers are still very low. Umbers has never been a huge guild, but at times we could put forth a 12 man raid on rare occassions. Today, I am not even sure we can field a 6 man waterworks run.

Merger or no merger, we need new members.

Not only that, but we need to step up our end game play if we want to keep people in the guild.

For the record and I am NOT changing my mind again.....I want to be an Umber Hulk, this is the ONLY guild I have ever joined in the dozens of games I have played in 15 years online. The History of our members is rich and I do not want to see it drift away, but without new members, it will. We can try the 4th guild experirement, we can see if the other 2 simply want to join us (like that is gonna happen). Another option is to just start to actively recruit new members. Active people who will want to help the guild grow.

That is my opinion.

Keith (Kizkut)

Characters: Kizkut Kuzkit
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SigTrent (Applicant) 6/10/2010 3:00 AM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????

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Well, lets see...

I forgot what I'd said about guild mergers, and after reading 19s post, I soft of remember.  I think it may be just a perspective when you are a leader vs when you aren't.  As a leader you think "how can I make sure things stay cool in a merger?"  That element of responsibility is there.  Hearing 19s concerns reminded me of the ones I had.  There are logistical challenges.

The best reason to merge is so there are more folks to play with that you trust.  That I think is the bottom line.  The airship thing is a pretty minor reason.  We could probably get one if we only had one or two active players.  They are not hard to get at the low end, nor are they in any way essential to play.

As things are, Umber Hulks is not big enough for how I want to play about half to three quarters of the time.  Were good for leveling up low and mid level characters, not to good for high level play or raids, and not so good if you play a lot.  Every Umber is a great person and a solid player, but few of us are going to be short manning level 20 quests on elite and the like and that is some of the sort of play I wanted to get into.

So once Anastazie and Seablade got up to raiding level, we found a raiding guild to play with.  We found one with a similar attitude to Umbers with the exception some of them are pretty elite in skills and character builds.  So we've been playing with them about as much as with folks in UH.  Of course that exacerbates the companion shortage in UH even more.  What I want to do is get umbers to come along on some of the Madborn raids, both cause I love playing with you all and because its the only way some of you will get a chance to try out the raids without resorting to the dangers of pugland.  (not that all pugs are bad)  Anne's having a great time playing with them as well and you know how Anne is, she makes new friends wherever she goes.

Even though I'm not guild leader I still feel a desire to see everyone in the guild be happy and have fun playing.  I'm having a blast with the Madborn guys doing high end quests and want others to have the same fun.  If a merger is a workable way to have that happen, I can see that as a good thing and I'd go along with it.

Nalinor's idea seems decent if folks want to try it.  Keep the other guilds, set up a merge guild and move over some characters to try it out.  I wouldn't need to be an officer or what not although I'd be happy to be.

But, it only makes sense if folks feel they are missing out on something.  If folks don't mind small and infrequent groups.. then there's no need to merge.  Right now the dual guild thing is working great for me and for Anne.

Whatever happens, Sigfried will stay in Umberhulks "just because" so the name will always remain and be available for whomever wants to wear the tag.  

Now Anne, she's just into playing with friends regardless of guild social butterfly that she is.  Anne is considering moving more characters into Madborn (although definitely not all of them).  She's always played with folks from many different guilds whatever tag she's wearing.

So if we decide to keep going as is, then its about whether we try to make a change.  Recruiting is pretty essential but its hard.  You have to have leaders who have the time and inclination to get folks questing and help them out.  Basically you have to make friends with new folks all the time and most of them will be new to the game.  That can be hard for a vet players since we've all done the low level stuff many times and it can be less than a thrill.  Now if you can get multiple leaders (officers) to all be active with it, that makes it easier.  But considering our core members, I'm not sure we really have that.

I think the best advice is to do what makes you happy and is most fun.  If UH is more a loose framework than a tight band, and that's still fun, then there's nothing wrong with that.  

I think the thing to do is keep our guild but try to expand our "network."





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Kalem01 (Applicant) 6/29/2010 1:27 PM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????

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Well 19,

I see you are contemplating a move even as i consider coming back to the umbers. I too like Sig and Anne am looking for hi level content guild. I do have lots and lots of lowbie characters that I would like to move. I am getting way too much drama in GSI. I love those guys but the drama is killing the fun for me. I made the move to Gsi because the guild droped to me and 19 and he wasnt on all that much. I am not sure how i feel about asking to come back and then having the guild disband. I have been trying to catch up to you sig or anne or even you 19 but cant seem to catch you on. chat with ya all laters when the game servers are back up.

Pandy
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Deadslug (SuperAdmin) 6/29/2010 3:26 PM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????
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I AM ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 Good news!!!!  The Guild is not disbanding.  We have been posting  5-10 per night.  with the release of Airships, the guild was running around having a lot of fun together searching for guild renown.  The merger is not taking place.  Neither of the 3 guilds really wanted it.  We'd be very pleased to see you back, Pandy.  I have been on in strange hours cause of my new job,  I'm around though.

I'm Russ Taylor, and that's what I think.

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DarkThoughts (Applicant) 2/12/2012 5:24 AM EST : RE: Guild Merger?????
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I know this is an old thread but I couldn't create a new one. Guild portal limits the number of topics on their free sites and the General Discussion is maxed out!

As a former KotSD Officer, I was around when all this merger talk was being circulated and I'm glad to see that it never came to fruition. The listed concerns were valid then and would still be so today if the topic resurfaced. In the end, we all have to find a guild that best suits our needs or create a new one. Chocolate tomato orange juice smoothie anyone?

Now that I've contributed to this thread, can we get a clean up on aisle nineteen so I can post a "What's Up Umbers!" topic and make a proper introduction?
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